Catavino - Latest Comments in Link Bait or Ignorance? A Reporter Gets Spanish Wine Wrong

Re: Link Bait or Ignorance? A Reporter Gets Spanish Wine Wrong

Joe M — Thu, 27 Dec 2007 21:12:11 -0000

Ryan -

You're ever the generous and patient host to still share a glass with this 'strawman' who writes such poorly written, and misunderstood articles for his poor 'small town' readers, and then gets all bent out of shape when he is taken to task for writing a poor, misleading article. Geez, this guy is more sensitive to criticism than the Man of Monkton.

David, I'm new to wine blogging and relatively new to this site, but I am pretty confident that most folks outside of the self congratulatory crowd you speak of would read your article and be confused as to what Spanish wines are about. Maybe your talents would best be served writing for the trade pubs you previously mentioned and not for newspapers or consumer publications.

And that's it from me on this thread.

Feliz y prospero ano nuevo, Ryan. Looking forward to what you've got in store for '08 on catavino.

-Joe

Re: Link Bait or Ignorance? A Reporter Gets Spanish Wine Wrong

Joe M — Thu, 27 Dec 2007 19:12:11 -0000

Re: Link Bait or Ignorance? A Reporter Gets Spanish Wine Wrong

ryanopaz — Thu, 27 Dec 2007 05:04:03 -0000

David Joe please we both love wine, civil discussion gets us much farther and lies and falsehoods don't. 3 to point out, then I'm done:

David our "dozens of readers" equaled 10,000 last month! If working in the wine industry 10 yrs with 3 years of it specializing in Spanish wine is "still a beginner" as you say, so be it. Finally I have taken on the "titans" as you say many times in other articles, not only that but I have spoke with, met with and consider some friends such as important Spanish wine minds, like Gerry Dawes, John Radford, and Victor de la Serna...

So David there is still a glass to share if you do make it to BCN any time in the near future. I'm happy to talk, but don't take out your frustration here.

Cheers to both!

BTW I was wrong on the Crianca/Crianza sort of, yes it was on a bottle of Cava where it's meaning has nothing to do with wood aging and the spelling is in Catalan not Spanish. As to the wines you tasted, they need no comment.

Re: Link Bait or Ignorance? A Reporter Gets Spanish Wine Wrong

Ryan — Thu, 27 Dec 2007 03:04:03 -0000

Re: Link Bait or Ignorance? A Reporter Gets Spanish Wine Wrong

David Falchek — Wed, 26 Dec 2007 22:05:55 -0000

Jeez, Joe M,

My column was not in step with how people view Spanish wines? My column, in a nutshell, was Spanish wines are great , Spain is experiencing a revolution in quality, Spain will take over the wine world in the next decade, and I got five mediocre to crappy Spanish wines. So, what part of my column do you not agree with because I thought this was a blog for Spanish wine FANS. www.detestavino .net is a different site.

As for the five wines I didn’t like, no one, in all these verbose retorts, defended them. What of the specific charges of incompetence, poor research, sloth, and the other deadly sins levied against me in this pile on begun by Ryan? In one of his histrionics about my column he rails against me for calling Garnancha fruity. I wonder if he went into seizure when he read Jancis Robinson’s entry on the variety? Or the Wines from Spain literature? Both call Garnancha fruity.

Same with the comparisons of some Spanish wine to Bordeaux. From reading Ryan's shock-and-awe entry, one would think I compared Spanish wines to Arizona Green Tea. Guess what Catavino fans, Cab Sauv and Merlot are Bordeaux varieties. When you plant them, blend them, put them in oak, and bottle them in Bordeaux glass, it might look a bit like you picked some idea up from Bordeaux. Now, WE, WS, Decanter, everyone, has drawn the same comparison between some Spanish wines and Bordeaux. Where is Ryan’s outrage? Seems like he may have some uncompensated work to do. He faulted me for a word from a Spanish wine LABEL from chrissakes. I couldn’t even mention a wine without incurring his faux outrage.

Let’s get down to brass tacks, then. Other than my unchallenged opinion on those 5 wines that let me down nothing in that column was new or not said before by many, many others far greater than I. (No one believes me, but I clip the work of others and I research my humble columns). The question then remains, why do you think Ryan singled me out when all I did was repackage? I think I know. Ryan can’t credibly tilt at titans like Robinson and Parker. So he, still a beginner, finds a straw man from the Keystone State, puts him up to a circle jerk of self-congratulatory bloggers, makes an outrageous (and in the end, inaccurate) critique, and looks oh so smart to his dozens of readers for putting some hick in the sticks in his place.

Then the straw man gets pilloried for things he didn’t say about Spanish wines (poor, confused Joe M working out the vine thing in his head, still thinks I condemned, rather than praised, the Spanish wine industry). The straw guy gets blamed for every wrong in the world of wine, even Neo-Prohibitionist legislation and is told he can't write about wine unless he visits the countries they come from. And he gets slammed for not writing about some single vineyard, biodynamic, small lot, special cask, reserve wines no one outside of Manhattan can find. There’s outrage, give-and-take, lot of hits, and all is good in Opazland.

Friends, bloggers, countrymen. Why not call an end to your pajama revolution against some small time scribbler from Pennsylvania? Some of us have paying jobs we need to get back to.

Re: Link Bait or Ignorance? A Reporter Gets Spanish Wine Wrong

David Falchek — Wed, 26 Dec 2007 20:05:55 -0000

Re: Link Bait or Ignorance? A Reporter Gets Spanish Wine Wrong

Joe M — Wed, 26 Dec 2007 13:34:20 -0000

David,

Thanks for clarifying and providing the history above. What I was trying to point out in my critique of your article, is that old vines and low production are not necessarily indicative of poor quality wine. Which, to me any, is what your article suggested. Your article also seemed out of step with the way that a lot of people view Spanish wine these days. Therefore many people on this site, myself included, thought it worthwhile to point this fact out to you. Including one of catavino's founder, Ryan Opaz, who originally offered his critical opinion of your findings. I do not pretend to speak authoritatively on the Spanish wine industry, which is why I consult this website and others like it to increase my knowledge.

David - I regret that you consider tough, constructive criticism an 'ad hominem attack.' And I regret that all of this needed to happen on what is typically a very civil, informative blog.

Re: Link Bait or Ignorance? A Reporter Gets Spanish Wine Wrong

David Falchek — Wed, 26 Dec 2007 12:48:45 -0000

Debating in this format really is the Special Olympics. I'm trying to resist this "bait."

But I think I have to clarify something for the Joe M up there who attempts to school me on the relationship between yeild and wine quality. For the record, I've contributed articles on viticulture regularly to Vineyard & Winery Magazine since the early 1990s and irregularly to Wine Business Monthly and Practical Winery and Vineyards. All, I'm sure you will all agree, terrible publications. Before I was into wine criticism, I was writing technical articles.

So Joe M, get your notebook out:

Spain's "low production" was a function of vine and row spacing -- not yeild. In the past (notice everyone I said "past") the majority of Spanish vineyards rows had incredibly wide spacing to accommodate out-dated vineyard equipment, even horse-drawn wagons!! Add to that very wide vine-spacing -- the distance between vines within the rows -- and you get very few vines per acre compared to rest of the world. (I'm being very general to pre-empt another lecture on this board.) So few vines per acre meant that Spain, which long has more ACRES of vineyard than any other country, didn't even make the top 5 when came to PRODUCTION (ton per acre/hectare.) The majority of Spain's vineyards were yeilding less than one-ton per acre and it sure as hell wasn't going into luxury wines.

So Joe, at this point you are probably scratching your head and asking "what happened out there in those Spanish vineyards?"

Well, you know that "new generation" everyone talks about? They replanted. They put rows much closer together since new tractors and mechanical harvestors are much narrower. Also, they planted vines more densly, you see, because now we know that closer vines actually increases below ground competition for water and nutrients, providing its own deterent for vigor and yeild. Add to that the cutting-edge application of VSP training, balanced pruning, a tight leaf pulling and hedging regime and more awareness and care of what's happening to the vineyard -- it's a revolution.

What do we have now? It seems counter-intuitive, to people like you Joe, but Spain's per acre yeild is way up but so is the fruit quality. It's because they added vines, they didn't diminish quality.

Joe, I didn't come on this board, like you, pretending that I knew enought to speak authoritatively about the Spanish industry or criticize other for their impressions. I wanted to explain my views to fellow wine drinkers out of respect for Ryan and his work on this board. You, whoever you are and whatever you do, and some others, turned this into a ad hominem attack.

That's sad, Joe. I hope wine brings you more joy in the future.

David.

Re: Link Bait or Ignorance? A Reporter Gets Spanish Wine Wrong

Joe M — Wed, 26 Dec 2007 11:34:20 -0000

Re: Link Bait or Ignorance? A Reporter Gets Spanish Wine Wrong

David Falchek — Wed, 26 Dec 2007 10:48:45 -0000

Re: Link Bait or Ignorance? A Reporter Gets Spanish Wine Wrong

Joe M — Sun, 23 Dec 2007 23:56:59 -0000

True, Constellation won't destroy the little guys. And their brands get a lot of folks into wine. I mean how many folks out there can point to Manischevitz as their first sip of alcohol?

I don't think I'd be too surprised to hear which wineries use mainly new French oak, micro-ox, and others because with some experience these are techniques which can readily be identified in wine. As for mechanical harvesting for 'old guard' estates, no surprises there. Especially in Rioja, I'd imagine.

Re: Link Bait or Ignorance? A Reporter Gets Spanish Wine Wrong

Joe M — Sun, 23 Dec 2007 21:56:59 -0000

Re: Link Bait or Ignorance? A Reporter Gets Spanish Wine Wrong

ryanopaz — Sun, 23 Dec 2007 17:14:35 -0000

Red guitar, Hogue, Escudo Rojo, Ravenswood, Kim Crawford and others not bad, maybe boring for you but in reality they fill a niche very well. I sold wine in the states for many years and I'll say the that while a Parker score could sell out a stack of wine quick it never made me the money or got as many people as internested in wine as the solid stack of quality middle of the road wine did!

Without COnstellation brands and other like them there would be a very small market, and it would be an elistist one(more than it already is). They helped convert a lot of people I know to wine that didn't drink it before, I'm glad I moved on but they aren't goinig to destroy the little guys like so many predict.

BTW, I could give you a list of wineries here in Spain that use new oak, micro-ox and other techniques you might shun and I think you might be surprised with the names on it. Oh and the ones that are lauded as the old gaurd with "classic Wines" that use mechanical harvesters, that list is long!! But I ty to not gossip, it's their image and I just like hearing people say "They would never use....x...y...or .....Z!" ....

All is not what it seems...the old gaurd often falls victim to the new ways

Re: Link Bait or Ignorance? A Reporter Gets Spanish Wine Wrong

Joe M — Sun, 23 Dec 2007 17:01:54 -0000

Oh, and I don't doubt that LRA, LdH and Fernandez have benefitted from new techniques and equipment in the winery. But they certainly are not using 100% new French oak, using reverse osmosis, micro-ox or anything like that, either. They are of the old guard, but make authentic, excellent, typical wines of their region. And I did not feel that the author had mentioned that these types of wineries exist in Spain.

Good point on the vines. Of course, old vines do not equal good vines. But old vines do necessarily mean that they are worthless and need to be replanted, either. Look at Toro, Jumilla, Barossa, Lodi, and many other regions producing good wines from 50+year old vines.

Re: Link Bait or Ignorance? A Reporter Gets Spanish Wine Wrong

Joe M — Sun, 23 Dec 2007 16:54:45 -0000

I would downgrade Red Guitar from 'very good' to 'ok.' Just my opinion....

Constellation is reponsible for these 'fine wine' wineries: Hogue, Escudo Rojo, Ravenswood, Kim Crawford. Bad - maybe not. Boring, safe and branded - absolutely.

Constellation also markets an assortment of cheap booze such as Arbor Mist, Paul Masson and Almaden. I don't trust a company who is pushing these types of drinks to produce and market fine wine.

Re: Link Bait or Ignorance? A Reporter Gets Spanish Wine Wrong

Ryan — Sun, 23 Dec 2007 15:14:35 -0000

Re: Link Bait or Ignorance? A Reporter Gets Spanish Wine Wrong

Joe M — Sun, 23 Dec 2007 15:01:54 -0000

Re: Link Bait or Ignorance? A Reporter Gets Spanish Wine Wrong

Joe M — Sun, 23 Dec 2007 14:54:45 -0000

Re: Link Bait or Ignorance? A Reporter Gets Spanish Wine Wrong

Mark V Marino — Sun, 23 Dec 2007 04:22:37 -0000

I just want to say one more thing this bothers me. Wine is a wonerful experiece and there is nothing about it that should be controlled.
It is just not fair becuase of where you live that you should not be able to drink wines that are available in opposing states that you cannot, because of some 70 year old law, be able to enjoy!

Wine has gotten so expensive because of regulators and rules, it is just Grape juice as my Grandfater used to say!

We need as a community to start to raise our voices to level the playing field and make wine available to all!
Regardless of where we live we should be able to experience Spainish, French, American,Australian, East Coast ,West Coast, we should be expecting our wines without Borders, based on their merit not their loacale! Let the best stand on its quality let us try and evaluate for ourselves!

I am not outraged by David I am outraged by our systems of distribution, certainly your locale should not decide your wine, you should be free to drink any and all wines that are produced!

Certainly, the fact that we can talk and express our feeling from one side of the world to the other is a sign that the time has come to stop these silly local regulations and create an international body that is based on a non-profit basis to promote the worldwide enjoyment of all wines, wines without borders! Just as information can now flow freely so must wine!

Re: Link Bait or Ignorance? A Reporter Gets Spanish Wine Wrong

ryanopaz — Sun, 23 Dec 2007 04:21:09 -0000

Joe, thanks for the comments. One thing though Constellation does not make "bad" wines. The wine in question is a very good wine but not one that I would hold up as the pinnacle of Spanish wine terrior. I'm in the business, and have been for a while and I do not concur on this point.

Actually the 3 bodegas that you all mention have with much effort moved from old techiniques to new ones. THey are all wineries that have made the change, but there are many, many more who are already making new exciting wineries through out Spain, starting modern and staying that way.

As to vines, we do still have too many and many of the old ones(producing crappy grapes) do need to go! Not all vines produce good grapes the older they get.

Thanks for commenting!

Re: Link Bait or Ignorance? A Reporter Gets Spanish Wine Wrong

Mark V Marino — Sun, 23 Dec 2007 02:22:37 -0000

I just want to say one more thing this bothers me. Wine is a wonerful experiece and there is nothing about it that should be controlled.

It is just not fair becuase of where you live that you should not be able to drink wines that are available in opposing states that you cannot, because of some 70 year old law, be able to enjoy!

Wine has gotten so expensive because of regulators and rules, it is just Grape juice as my Grandfater used to say!

We need as a community to start to raise our voices to level the playing field and make wine available to all!

Regardless of where we live we should be able to experience Spainish, French, American,Australian, East Coast ,West Coast, we should be expecting our wines without Borders, based on their merit not their loacale! Let the best stand on its quality let us try and evaluate for ourselves!

I am not outraged by David I am outraged by our systems of distribution, certainly your locale should not decide your wine, you should be free to drink any and all wines that are produced!

Certainly, the fact that we can talk and express our feeling from one side of the world to the other is a sign that the time has come to stop these silly local regulations and create an international body that is based on a non-profit basis to promote the worldwide enjoyment of all wines, wines without borders! Just as information can now flow freely so must wine!

Re: Link Bait or Ignorance? A Reporter Gets Spanish Wine Wrong

Ryan — Sun, 23 Dec 2007 02:21:09 -0000

Re: Link Bait or Ignorance? A Reporter Gets Spanish Wine Wrong

Joe M — Sun, 23 Dec 2007 00:09:28 -0000

What a misinformed article. Some of the more noticeable, misguided (and misguiding) statements:

"It’s a crowd-pleaser produced by wine giant Constellation Brands, which rarely makes market missteps."

[Constellation Brands and huge beverage companies like them produce and market largely homogenous, bad wines. Almost anyone in the wine business will concur]

"Spain is very much two different wine industries: the old, low-production, shaky quality industry and the cutting-edge next generation that replanted vines and invested in the new equipment and techniques."

[Many Spanish wine drinkers would take issue with this declaration. Where would the author place La Rioja Alta, Lopez de Heredia, and Bodegas Alejandro Fernandez? Also to associate low producing vines with poor quality wine is wrong. As many people know, older, lower yielding vines produce less, but tastier fruit. And to tie the 'cutting edge next generation' with what is good is not correct either. Ask anyone who tastes Spanish wines every week, sees the amount of new importers cropping up in the states, and is unable to differentiate between various wines from Toro, Montsant etc.]

A few questions I would ask the author, who works in one of the worst states to buy wine in the country (possibly second only to Alaska?): Why not write about wines that are available in neighboring states such as Maryland and New Jersey? Why assume that your readers only drink wine a few times a month and want a dumbed down explanation of exciting, new types of wine? How often are you, as an advocate of the joys of drinking wine, voicing your disapproval of the current, un-democratic, unfair state control of wine and liquor in Pennsylvania?

Not to be cruel or mean spirited, but I would suggest that any lover of wine who lives in the Wilkes Barre, PA area supplement their local weekly wine column with Eric Asimov (New York Times), or even Dorothy and John Brecher (Wall St Journal), a few obviously more experienced, more skillful wine writers.

Re: Link Bait or Ignorance? A Reporter Gets Spanish Wine Wrong

Joe M — Sat, 22 Dec 2007 22:09:28 -0000

Re: Link Bait or Ignorance? A Reporter Gets Spanish Wine Wrong

Bill — Sat, 22 Dec 2007 12:19:32 -0000

I'm all for unfettered wine distribution throughout the world. The current system in the US is the result of several factors, of which the majority of U.S. readers of this blog are probably aware. I know it's hard to believe, but, even though Prohibition was repealed over 70 years ago, the structures that arose following Prohibition are still with us. The multi-tiered system of producer/distributor/retailer is probably the worst. And let's not forget local customs and the attendant "blue laws" that have been around even longer than Prohibition and actually fostered the support required to get Prohibition passed in the first place. In Minnesota, both of these things impact my ability to buy wine: 1. I can't buy wine on Sunday, 2. I can't buy wine in a grocery store. Thank the ICC, I can still get wine shipped in!

To come back to the topic at hand, I was actually hoping David would respond, and he did so with eloquence and restraint. Context is everything, and within the context of the story, he was certainly justified in his opinion. To answer the question posed by Gabriella, I believe David's obligation is, or was, full disclosure of his situation, which he fulfilled in his post.

Maybe you could get the list of Spanish wines available in Pennsylvania and see if any of them are worthy of David's review. I already see the angle for another article by David on Spanish wine that would recount the outrage of a well-known blogger to the article, and the subsequent "peace-making" that would include the blogger's suggestions of other Spanish (or even Portuguese) wines to try.

I'll be looking forward to more on this topic as time goes by. . .