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Catavino
Spanish Wine, Portuguese Wine, their foods, and cultures
Thanks to our friend Richard at a Passionate Foodie, I was pointed to an article that made me laugh, and then cry, and then realize that I had been duped by some clever Link Baiting. The article is titled, Spain’s Wines Fall Short of their Potential and is written by David Falche
... Continue reading »
1 year ago
Also badly researched, lacking in tasting experience and knowledge. That'll do for a start.
1 year ago
As for whether it's link-baiting, I'm not sure. It's hard to tell. It does say that it's a weekly column...so I guess you could look through past entries to see what the level of reporting is and whether it's as hyperbolic and instigative (is that even a word? I think maybe I just made that up!).
1 year ago
Also badly researched, lacking in tasting experience and knowledge. That'll do for a start.
1 year ago
There are those of us who get that the enormous diversity of culinary and cultural expression on the micro-regional level is where the beauty of human expression is really to be found. We're not stuck in a silly competitive game of Hollywoodization that implies that everyone and everything is competing to be #1, whatever absurdly twisted interpretation of what single thing we all should be striving for.
Don't succumb to the bait, just keep doing your work. People are noticing, and appreciate the service you're providing by helping us to dig deeper, and get a better understanding of the micro-regional differences within Spain, and how by trying to compare Spanish wines to Bordeaux, we miss the point.
1 year ago
As for whether it's link-baiting, I'm not sure. It's hard to tell. It does say that it's a weekly column...so I guess you could look through past entries to see what the level of reporting is and whether it's as hyperbolic and instigative (is that even a word? I think maybe I just made that up!).
1 year ago
On the other hand, we can invite David to come to Spain, and have the experience of discovery of some great wines. It reminds me of a friend I was talking to another day, she mentioned to a co-worker she had not yet been to Granada, instead of responding that she really must go her co-worker said, "Que suerte!, How lucky! Then you can still have the experience of discovering it for the first time!!"
I just would like to say to Ryan and Gabriella, thank you for making it your mission to try to get the word out about wines of the Iberian peninsula. Its exactly what is needed when there is obviously so little relaible information avaliable in English about the great wines produced in Spain. Gracias!
J.
1 year ago
There are those of us who get that the enormous diversity of culinary and cultural expression on the micro-regional level is where the beauty of human expression is really to be found. We're not stuck in a silly competitive game of Hollywoodization that implies that everyone and everything is competing to be #1, whatever absurdly twisted interpretation of what single thing we all should be striving for.
Don't succumb to the bait, just keep doing your work. People are noticing, and appreciate the service you're providing by helping us to dig deeper, and get a better understanding of the micro-regional differences within Spain, and how by trying to compare Spanish wines to Bordeaux, we miss the point.
1 year ago
On the other hand, we can invite David to come to Spain, and have the experience of discovery of some great wines. It reminds me of a friend I was talking to another day, she mentioned to a co-worker she had not yet been to Granada, instead of responding that she really must go her co-worker said, "Que suerte!, How lucky! Then you can still have the experience of discovering it for the first time!!"
I just would like to say to Ryan and Gabriella, thank you for making it your mission to try to get the word out about wines of the Iberian peninsula. Its exactly what is needed when there is obviously so little relaible information avaliable in English about the great wines produced in Spain. Gracias!
J.
1 year ago
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1 year ago
1 year ago
1 year ago
1 year ago
1 year ago
We all did but...
Poorly researched and written.
1 year ago
We all did but...
Poorly researched and written.
1 year ago
I can certainly admire the passion Ryan and the posters have for Spanish wines.
Indeed, anyone who read my column in its entirety would see that the majority of the column, the top half, speaks about the revolution in Spanish wine quality and about Spain's emergence as the dominant wine producing nation the next decade.
My point I raised, eventually, was that the wines I tried were either mediocre or horrible. They were wines I randomly picked up, available in state-controlled stores in Pennsylvania. These are the wines my readers purchase, for good or for ill, as representative of what Spain has to offer.
Does Spain produce better? Of course. I know it and I said it. Those five wines were not scientifically selected or intended to be representative of the nation. They gave me the opportunity to write about Spain for an entry-level wine drinking audience – daily newspaper readers. Unlike bloggers, I have 13 short column inches in which to write.
Everyone seems to be criticizing me for not writing about wines I haven't tasted, wines probably not available to my readers in Pennsylvania, (a shortcoming of the state monopoly's Spanish selection I pointed out in the column.)
Some of the other charges were just unsound: use of crizanca was the producer's, not mine. Visiting a wine region is not a requirement to writing about wine, no more than it is a prerequisite to drinking a wine.
The comparison between Tempranillo and cab was to communicate the variety to someone who drinks wine once or twice a month. I had the horrible thought that perhaps a California cab drinker would consider a Tempranillio. And seeing Bordeaux in a Priorat? I am hardly the first, and I am in good company.
As for Spain, I plan to visit there in late 2008 or early 2009 and spin the trip into more in-depth articles for magazines rather than entry-level wine writing, the simplicities of which have so enraged all of you. I speak Castilian and Ryan's photographs are so stunning, they have only increased my anticipation for the visit.
Ryan, I will let you know when I am in town. Perhaps we can make peace over a few bottles.
Regards,
David
1 year ago
I can certainly admire the passion Ryan and the posters have for Spanish wines.
Indeed, anyone who read my column in its entirety would see that the majority of the column, the top half, speaks about the revolution in Spanish wine quality and about Spain's emergence as the dominant wine producing nation the next decade.
My point I raised, eventually, was that the wines I tried were either mediocre or horrible. They were wines I randomly picked up, available in state-controlled stores in Pennsylvania. These are the wines my readers purchase, for good or for ill, as representative of what Spain has to offer.
Does Spain produce better? Of course. I know it and I said it. Those five wines were not scientifically selected or intended to be representative of the nation. They gave me the opportunity to write about Spain for an entry-level wine drinking audience – daily newspaper readers. Unlike bloggers, I have 13 short column inches in which to write.
Everyone seems to be criticizing me for not writing about wines I haven't tasted, wines probably not available to my readers in Pennsylvania, (a shortcoming of the state monopoly's Spanish selection I pointed out in the column.)
Some of the other charges were just unsound: use of crizanca was the producer's, not mine. Visiting a wine region is not a requirement to writing about wine, no more than it is a prerequisite to drinking a wine.
The comparison between Tempranillo and cab was to communicate the variety to someone who drinks wine once or twice a month. I had the horrible thought that perhaps a California cab drinker would consider a Tempranillio. And seeing Bordeaux in a Priorat? I am hardly the first, and I am in good company.
As for Spain, I plan to visit there in late 2008 or early 2009 and spin the trip into more in-depth articles for magazines rather than entry-level wine writing, the simplicities of which have so enraged all of you. I speak Castilian and Ryan's photographs are so stunning, they have only increased my anticipation for the visit.
Ryan, I will let you know when I am in town. Perhaps we can make peace over a few bottles.
Regards,
David
1 year ago
Well I would not lose much sleep over that as here is some one that wants to drink w
ine and has only one source to get it from, he cannot make chioce one, he cannot ship to himself from any where outside the state. He cannot join a wine club, he cannot even travel anywhere and ship wine back. It is the worst place in the US to live and try to get and drink good wine! So let it go and pity the poor guy.... he needs to move cause if he visits it will be really terrible when he cannot ship back I see regularly and it is really sad to see the frustration!
This is one reason I wrote several articles on interstate shipping of wine as here doing tours to the great wineries people go nuts when they find out they cannot ship back home for state laws!
<a href="<a href="http://winelimo.typepad.com/winery_times/2007/12/interstate-ship.html
http://winelimo.typepad.com/winery_times/2007/12/.../>
"><a href="http://winelimo.typepad.com/winery_times...
<a href="http://winelimo.typepad.com/winery_times/2007/12/..."><a href="http://winelimo.typepad.com/winery_times...
1 year ago
Well I would not lose much sleep over that as here is some one that wants to drink w
ine and has only one source to get it from, he cannot make chioce one, he cannot ship to himself from any where outside the state. He cannot join a wine club, he cannot even travel anywhere and ship wine back. It is the worst place in the US to live and try to get and drink good wine! So let it go and pity the poor guy.... he needs to move cause if he visits it will be really terrible when he cannot ship back I see regularly and it is really sad to see the frustration!
This is one reason I wrote several articles on interstate shipping of wine as here doing tours to the great wineries people go nuts when they find out they cannot ship back home for state laws!
<a href="<a href="http://winelimo.typepad.com/winery_times/2007/12/interstate-ship.html
http://winelimo.typepad.com/winery_times/2007/12/.../>
"><a href="http://winelimo.typepad.com/winery_times...
<a href="http://winelimo.typepad.com/winery_times/2007/12/..."><a href="http://winelimo.typepad.com/winery_times...
1 year ago
Well I would not lose much sleep over that as here is some one that wants to drink w
ine and has only one source to get it from, he cannot make chioce one, he cannot ship to himself from any where outside the state. He cannot join a wine club, he cannot even travel anywhere and ship wine back. It is the worst place in the US to live and try to get and drink good wine! So let it go and pity the poor guy.... he needs to move cause if he visits it will be really terrible when he cannot ship back I see regularly and it is really sad to see the frustration!
This is one reason I wrote several articles on interstate shipping of wine as here doing tours to the great wineries people go nuts when they find out they cannot ship back home for state laws!
<a href="<a href="http://winelimo.typepad.com/winery_times/2007/12/interstate-ship.html
http://winelimo.typepad.com/winery_times/2007/12/.../>
"><a href="http://winelimo.typepad.com/winery_times...
<a href="http://winelimo.typepad.com/winery_times/2007/12/..."><a href="http://winelimo.typepad.com/winery_times...
1 year ago
Well I would not lose much sleep over that as here is some one that wants to drink w
ine and has only one source to get it from, he cannot make chioce one, he cannot ship to himself from any where outside the state. He cannot join a wine club, he cannot even travel anywhere and ship wine back. It is the worst place in the US to live and try to get and drink good wine! So let it go and pity the poor guy.... he needs to move cause if he visits it will be really terrible when he cannot ship back I see regularly and it is really sad to see the frustration!
This is one reason I wrote several articles on interstate shipping of wine as here doing tours to the great wineries people go nuts when they find out they cannot ship back home for state laws!
http://winelimo.typepad.com/winery_times/2007/1...
http://winelimo.typepad.com/winery_times/2007/1...
1 year ago
As a consumer, and as wine writer, I'm conflicted over the justification that just because David cannot get a fair representation of Spanish wine that he has the authority to write on the subject. Yes, we could let it go and say that, unfortunately for David, he's incapable of scrounging up a good lineup of Spanish wine as a result of liquor laws, but I think that's a cop out. If he wants to write a piece on Pennsylvania's sampling of Spanish wine, I'm all for it, but to say that Spain in general doesn't have any distinguishing wines because he couldn't find it in Penn. is misrepresentation.
Hence, my question is: what is David's responsibility as a writer publishing articles on Spanish wine, as a whole, while living in a wine monopoly controlled state?
1 year ago
As a consumer, and as wine writer, I'm conflicted over the justification that just because David cannot get a fair representation of Spanish wine that he has the authority to write on the subject. Yes, we could let it go and say that, unfortunately for David, he's incapable of scrounging up a good lineup of Spanish wine as a result of liquor laws, but I think that's a cop out. If he wants to write a piece on Pennsylvania's sampling of Spanish wine, I'm all for it, but to say that Spain in general doesn't have any distinguishing wines because he couldn't find it in Penn. is misrepresentation.
Hence, my question is: what is David's responsibility as a writer publishing articles on Spanish wine, as a whole, while living in a wine monopoly controlled state?
1 year ago
I do have most of my clients coming from outside the state for tours here so I am continually exposed to these incredibily outdated laws of interstate shipping which is a huge reason why someone such as David has not a fair playing field when it comes to evaluating wines from anywhere, let alone Spain.
For me it is a reoccurring theme I must endure time and again with entertaining clients from all over the world. I am not sure what we can do to change the laws, but if we live in a free and democratic society it should be expected that we are not told by the state or their representatives what or from whom we can ship wine to ourselves that we want to drink! Let alone, there might be one man that decides what millions of taxpayers will drink as in David's case!
This seems to me a world wide problem and it is as usual all about money, there needs to be an international body built to support world exchange of wine back and forth, a UN Wine Distrubtion. This body would be non-profit and exist only to support and promote the world wide exchange of wine without restraint of borders or regions so all could partake of wines from anywhere. What an improvement that would be, I cannot imagine how it could happen but the fact that Blogging is raising the international awareness of this issue it might be the vehicle to launch the disscussion!
1 year ago
I do have most of my clients coming from outside the state for tours here so I am continually exposed to these incredibily outdated laws of interstate shipping which is a huge reason why someone such as David has not a fair playing field when it comes to evaluating wines from anywhere, let alone Spain.
For me it is a reoccurring theme I must endure time and again with entertaining clients from all over the world. I am not sure what we can do to change the laws, but if we live in a free and democratic society it should be expected that we are not told by the state or their representatives what or from whom we can ship wine to ourselves that we want to drink! Let alone, there might be one man that decides what millions of taxpayers will drink as in David's case!
This seems to me a world wide problem and it is as usual all about money, there needs to be an international body built to support world exchange of wine back and forth, a UN Wine Distrubtion. This body would be non-profit and exist only to support and promote the world wide exchange of wine without restraint of borders or regions so all could partake of wines from anywhere. What an improvement that would be, I cannot imagine how it could happen but the fact that Blogging is raising the international awareness of this issue it might be the vehicle to launch the disscussion!
1 year ago
To come back to the topic at hand, I was actually hoping David would respond, and he did so with eloquence and restraint. Context is everything, and within the context of the story, he was certainly justified in his opinion. To answer the question posed by Gabriella, I believe David's obligation is, or was, full disclosure of his situation, which he fulfilled in his post.
Maybe you could get the list of Spanish wines available in Pennsylvania and see if any of them are worthy of David's review. I already see the angle for another article by David on Spanish wine that would recount the outrage of a well-known blogger to the article, and the subsequent "peace-making" that would include the blogger's suggestions of other Spanish (or even Portuguese) wines to try.
I'll be looking forward to more on this topic as time goes by. . .
1 year ago
To come back to the topic at hand, I was actually hoping David would respond, and he did so with eloquence and restraint. Context is everything, and within the context of the story, he was certainly justified in his opinion. To answer the question posed by Gabriella, I believe David's obligation is, or was, full disclosure of his situation, which he fulfilled in his post.
Maybe you could get the list of Spanish wines available in Pennsylvania and see if any of them are worthy of David's review. I already see the angle for another article by David on Spanish wine that would recount the outrage of a well-known blogger to the article, and the subsequent "peace-making" that would include the blogger's suggestions of other Spanish (or even Portuguese) wines to try.
I'll be looking forward to more on this topic as time goes by. . .
1 year ago
"It’s a crowd-pleaser produced by wine giant Constellation Brands, which rarely makes market missteps."
[Constellation Brands and huge beverage companies like them produce and market largely homogenous, bad wines. Almost anyone in the wine business will concur]
"Spain is very much two different wine industries: the old, low-production, shaky quality industry and the cutting-edge next generation that replanted vines and invested in the new equipment and techniques."
[Many Spanish wine drinkers would take issue with this declaration. Where would the author place La Rioja Alta, Lopez de Heredia, and Bodegas Alejandro Fernandez? Also to associate low producing vines with poor quality wine is wrong. As many people know, older, lower yielding vines produce less, but tastier fruit. And to tie the 'cutting edge next generation' with what is good is not correct either. Ask anyone who tastes Spanish wines every week, sees the amount of new importers cropping up in the states, and is unable to differentiate between various wines from Toro, Montsant etc.]
A few questions I would ask the author, who works in one of the worst states to buy wine in the country (possibly second only to Alaska?): Why not write about wines that are available in neighboring states such as Maryland and New Jersey? Why assume that your readers only drink wine a few times a month and want a dumbed down explanation of exciting, new types of wine? How often are you, as an advocate of the joys of drinking wine, voicing your disapproval of the current, un-democratic, unfair state control of wine and liquor in Pennsylvania?
Not to be cruel or mean spirited, but I would suggest that any lover of wine who lives in the Wilkes Barre, PA area supplement their local weekly wine column with Eric Asimov (New York Times), or even Dorothy and John Brecher (Wall St Journal), a few obviously more experienced, more skillful wine writers.
1 year ago
"It’s a crowd-pleaser produced by wine giant Constellation Brands, which rarely makes market missteps."
[Constellation Brands and huge beverage companies like them produce and market largely homogenous, bad wines. Almost anyone in the wine business will concur]
"Spain is very much two different wine industries: the old, low-production, shaky quality industry and the cutting-edge next generation that replanted vines and invested in the new equipment and techniques."
[Many Spanish wine drinkers would take issue with this declaration. Where would the author place La Rioja Alta, Lopez de Heredia, and Bodegas Alejandro Fernandez? Also to associate low producing vines with poor quality wine is wrong. As many people know, older, lower yielding vines produce less, but tastier fruit. And to tie the 'cutting edge next generation' with what is good is not correct either. Ask anyone who tastes Spanish wines every week, sees the amount of new importers cropping up in the states, and is unable to differentiate between various wines from Toro, Montsant etc.]
A few questions I would ask the author, who works in one of the worst states to buy wine in the country (possibly second only to Alaska?): Why not write about wines that are available in neighboring states such as Maryland and New Jersey? Why assume that your readers only drink wine a few times a month and want a dumbed down explanation of exciting, new types of wine? How often are you, as an advocate of the joys of drinking wine, voicing your disapproval of the current, un-democratic, unfair state control of wine and liquor in Pennsylvania?
Not to be cruel or mean spirited, but I would suggest that any lover of wine who lives in the Wilkes Barre, PA area supplement their local weekly wine column with Eric Asimov (New York Times), or even Dorothy and John Brecher (Wall St Journal), a few obviously more experienced, more skillful wine writers.
1 year ago
Actually the 3 bodegas that you all mention have with much effort moved from old techiniques to new ones. THey are all wineries that have made the change, but there are many, many more who are already making new exciting wineries through out Spain, starting modern and staying that way.
As to vines, we do still have too many and many of the old ones(producing crappy grapes) do need to go! Not all vines produce good grapes the older they get.
Thanks for commenting!
1 year ago
It is just not fair becuase of where you live that you should not be able to drink wines that are available in opposing states that you cannot, because of some 70 year old law, be able to enjoy!
Wine has gotten so expensive because of regulators and rules, it is just Grape juice as my Grandfater used to say!
We need as a community to start to raise our voices to level the playing field and make wine available to all!
Regardless of where we live we should be able to experience Spainish, French, American,Australian, East Coast ,West Coast, we should be expecting our wines without Borders, based on their merit not their loacale! Let the best stand on its quality let us try and evaluate for ourselves!
I am not outraged by David I am outraged by our systems of distribution, certainly your locale should not decide your wine, you should be free to drink any and all wines that are produced!
Certainly, the fact that we can talk and express our feeling from one side of the world to the other is a sign that the time has come to stop these silly local regulations and create an international body that is based on a non-profit basis to promote the worldwide enjoyment of all wines, wines without borders! Just as information can now flow freely so must wine!
1 year ago
Actually the 3 bodegas that you all mention have with much effort moved from old techiniques to new ones. THey are all wineries that have made the change, but there are many, many more who are already making new exciting wineries through out Spain, starting modern and staying that way.
As to vines, we do still have too many and many of the old ones(producing crappy grapes) do need to go! Not all vines produce good grapes the older they get.
Thanks for commenting!
1 year ago
It is just not fair becuase of where you live that you should not be able to drink wines that are available in opposing states that you cannot, because of some 70 year old law, be able to enjoy!
Wine has gotten so expensive because of regulators and rules, it is just Grape juice as my Grandfater used to say!
We need as a community to start to raise our voices to level the playing field and make wine available to all!
Regardless of where we live we should be able to experience Spainish, French, American,Australian, East Coast ,West Coast, we should be expecting our wines without Borders, based on their merit not their loacale! Let the best stand on its quality let us try and evaluate for ourselves!
I am not outraged by David I am outraged by our systems of distribution, certainly your locale should not decide your wine, you should be free to drink any and all wines that are produced!
Certainly, the fact that we can talk and express our feeling from one side of the world to the other is a sign that the time has come to stop these silly local regulations and create an international body that is based on a non-profit basis to promote the worldwide enjoyment of all wines, wines without borders! Just as information can now flow freely so must wine!
1 year ago
Constellation is reponsible for these 'fine wine' wineries: Hogue, Escudo Rojo, Ravenswood, Kim Crawford. Bad - maybe not. Boring, safe and branded - absolutely.
Constellation also markets an assortment of cheap booze such as Arbor Mist, Paul Masson and Almaden. I don't trust a company who is pushing these types of drinks to produce and market fine wine.
1 year ago
Good point on the vines. Of course, old vines do not equal good vines. But old vines do necessarily mean that they are worthless and need to be replanted, either. Look at Toro, Jumilla, Barossa, Lodi, and many other regions producing good wines from 50 year old vines.
1 year ago
Without COnstellation brands and other like them there would be a very small market, and it would be an elistist one(more than it already is). They helped convert a lot of people I know to wine that didn't drink it before, I'm glad I moved on but they aren't goinig to destroy the little guys like so many predict.
BTW, I could give you a list of wineries here in Spain that use new oak, micro-ox and other techniques you might shun and I think you might be surprised with the names on it. Oh and the ones that are lauded as the old gaurd with "classic Wines" that use mechanical harvesters, that list is long!! But I ty to not gossip, it's their image and I just like hearing people say "They would never use....x...y...or .....Z!" ....
All is not what it seems...the old gaurd often falls victim to the new ways
1 year ago
Constellation is reponsible for these 'fine wine' wineries: Hogue, Escudo Rojo, Ravenswood, Kim Crawford. Bad - maybe not. Boring, safe and branded - absolutely.
Constellation also markets an assortment of cheap booze such as Arbor Mist, Paul Masson and Almaden. I don't trust a company who is pushing these types of drinks to produce and market fine wine.
1 year ago
Good point on the vines. Of course, old vines do not equal good vines. But old vines do necessarily mean that they are worthless and need to be replanted, either. Look at Toro, Jumilla, Barossa, Lodi, and many other regions producing good wines from 50+year old vines.
1 year ago
Without COnstellation brands and other like them there would be a very small market, and it would be an elistist one(more than it already is). They helped convert a lot of people I know to wine that didn't drink it before, I'm glad I moved on but they aren't goinig to destroy the little guys like so many predict.
BTW, I could give you a list of wineries here in Spain that use new oak, micro-ox and other techniques you might shun and I think you might be surprised with the names on it. Oh and the ones that are lauded as the old gaurd with "classic Wines" that use mechanical harvesters, that list is long!! But I ty to not gossip, it's their image and I just like hearing people say "They would never use....x...y...or .....Z!" ....
All is not what it seems...the old gaurd often falls victim to the new ways
1 year ago
I don't think I'd be too surprised to hear which wineries use mainly new French oak, micro-ox, and others because with some experience these are techniques which can readily be identified in wine. As for mechanical harvesting for 'old guard' estates, no surprises there. Especially in Rioja, I'd imagine.
1 year ago
I don't think I'd be too surprised to hear which wineries use mainly new French oak, micro-ox, and others because with some experience these are techniques which can readily be identified in wine. As for mechanical harvesting for 'old guard' estates, no surprises there. Especially in Rioja, I'd imagine.
1 year ago
But I think I have to clarify something for the Joe M up there who attempts to school me on the relationship between yeild and wine quality. For the record, I've contributed articles on viticulture regularly to Vineyard & Winery Magazine since the early 1990s and irregularly to Wine Business Monthly and Practical Winery and Vineyards. All, I'm sure you will all agree, terrible publications. Before I was into wine criticism, I was writing technical articles.
So Joe M, get your notebook out:
Spain's "low production" was a function of vine and row spacing -- not yeild. In the past (notice everyone I said "past") the majority of Spanish vineyards rows had incredibly wide spacing to accommodate out-dated vineyard equipment, even horse-drawn wagons!! Add to that very wide vine-spacing -- the distance between vines within the rows -- and you get very few vines per acre compared to rest of the world. (I'm being very general to pre-empt another lecture on this board.) So few vines per acre meant that Spain, which long has more ACRES of vineyard than any other country, didn't even make the top 5 when came to PRODUCTION (ton per acre/hectare.) The majority of Spain's vineyards were yeilding less than one-ton per acre and it sure as hell wasn't going into luxury wines.
So Joe, at this point you are probably scratching your head and asking "what happened out there in those Spanish vineyards?"
Well, you know that "new generation" everyone talks about? They replanted. They put rows much closer together since new tractors and mechanical harvestors are much narrower. Also, they planted vines more densly, you see, because now we know that closer vines actually increases below ground competition for water and nutrients, providing its own deterent for vigor and yeild. Add to that the cutting-edge application of VSP training, balanced pruning, a tight leaf pulling and hedging regime and more awareness and care of what's happening to the vineyard -- it's a revolution.
What do we have now? It seems counter-intuitive, to people like you Joe, but Spain's per acre yeild is way up but so is the fruit quality. It's because they added vines, they didn't diminish quality.
Joe, I didn't come on this board, like you, pretending that I knew enought to speak authoritatively about the Spanish industry or criticize other for their impressions. I wanted to explain my views to fellow wine drinkers out of respect for Ryan and his work on this board. You, whoever you are and whatever you do, and some others, turned this into a ad hominem attack.
That's sad, Joe. I hope wine brings you more joy in the future.
David.
1 year ago
Thanks for clarifying and providing the history above. What I was trying to point out in my critique of your article, is that old vines and low production are not necessarily indicative of poor quality wine. Which, to me any, is what your article suggested. Your article also seemed out of step with the way that a lot of people view Spanish wine these days. Therefore many people on this site, myself included, thought it worthwhile to point this fact out to you. Including one of catavino's founder, Ryan Opaz, who originally offered his critical opinion of your findings. I do not pretend to speak authoritatively on the Spanish wine industry, which is why I consult this website and others like it to increase my knowledge.
David - I regret that you consider tough, constructive criticism an 'ad hominem attack.' And I regret that all of this needed to happen on what is typically a very civil, informative blog.
1 year ago
But I think I have to clarify something for the Joe M up there who attempts to school me on the relationship between yeild and wine quality. For the record, I've contributed articles on viticulture regularly to Vineyard & Winery Magazine since the early 1990s and irregularly to Wine Business Monthly and Practical Winery and Vineyards. All, I'm sure you will all agree, terrible publications. Before I was into wine criticism, I was writing technical articles.
So Joe M, get your notebook out:
Spain's "low production" was a function of vine and row spacing -- not yeild. In the past (notice everyone I said "past") the majority of Spanish vineyards rows had incredibly wide spacing to accommodate out-dated vineyard equipment, even horse-drawn wagons!! Add to that very wide vine-spacing -- the distance between vines within the rows -- and you get very few vines per acre compared to rest of the world. (I'm being very general to pre-empt another lecture on this board.) So few vines per acre meant that Spain, which long has more ACRES of vineyard than any other country, didn't even make the top 5 when came to PRODUCTION (ton per acre/hectare.) The majority of Spain's vineyards were yeilding less than one-ton per acre and it sure as hell wasn't going into luxury wines.
So Joe, at this point you are probably scratching your head and asking "what happened out there in those Spanish vineyards?"
Well, you know that "new generation" everyone talks about? They replanted. They put rows much closer together since new tractors and mechanical harvestors are much narrower. Also, they planted vines more densly, you see, because now we know that closer vines actually increases below ground competition for water and nutrients, providing its own deterent for vigor and yeild. Add to that the cutting-edge application of VSP training, balanced pruning, a tight leaf pulling and hedging regime and more awareness and care of what's happening to the vineyard -- it's a revolution.
What do we have now? It seems counter-intuitive, to people like you Joe, but Spain's per acre yeild is way up but so is the fruit quality. It's because they added vines, they didn't diminish quality.
Joe, I didn't come on this board, like you, pretending that I knew enought to speak authoritatively about the Spanish industry or criticize other for their impressions. I wanted to explain my views to fellow wine drinkers out of respect for Ryan and his work on this board. You, whoever you are and whatever you do, and some others, turned this into a ad hominem attack.
That's sad, Joe. I hope wine brings you more joy in the future.
David.
1 year ago
Thanks for clarifying and providing the history above. What I was trying to point out in my critique of your article, is that old vines and low production are not necessarily indicative of poor quality wine. Which, to me any, is what your article suggested. Your article also seemed out of step with the way that a lot of people view Spanish wine these days. Therefore many people on this site, myself included, thought it worthwhile to point this fact out to you. Including one of catavino's founder, Ryan Opaz, who originally offered his critical opinion of your findings. I do not pretend to speak authoritatively on the Spanish wine industry, which is why I consult this website and others like it to increase my knowledge.
David - I regret that you consider tough, constructive criticism an 'ad hominem attack.' And I regret that all of this needed to happen on what is typically a very civil, informative blog.
1 year ago
My column was not in step with how people view Spanish wines? My column, in a nutshell, was Spanish wines are great , Spain is experiencing a revolution in quality, Spain will take over the wine world in the next decade, and I got five mediocre to crappy Spanish wines. So, what part of my column do you not agree with because I thought this was a blog for Spanish wine FANS. www.detestavino .net is a different site.
As for the five wines I didn’t like, no one, in all these verbose retorts, defended them. What of the specific charges of incompetence, poor research, sloth, and the other deadly sins levied against me in this pile on begun by Ryan? In one of his histrionics about my column he rails against me for calling Garnancha fruity. I wonder if he went into seizure when he read Jancis Robinson’s entry on the variety? Or the Wines from Spain literature? Both call Garnancha fruity.
Same with the comparisons of some Spanish wine to Bordeaux. From reading Ryan's shock-and-awe entry, one would think I compared Spanish wines to Arizona Green Tea. Guess what Catavino fans, Cab Sauv and Merlot are Bordeaux varieties. When you plant them, blend them, put them in oak, and bottle them in Bordeaux glass, it might look a bit like you picked some idea up from Bordeaux. Now, WE, WS, Decanter, everyone, has drawn the same comparison between some Spanish wines and Bordeaux. Where is Ryan’s outrage? Seems like he may have some uncompensated work to do. He faulted me for a word from a Spanish wine LABEL from chrissakes. I couldn’t even mention a wine without incurring his faux outrage.
Let’s get down to brass tacks, then. Other than my unchallenged opinion on those 5 wines that let me down nothing in that column was new or not said before by many, many others far greater than I. (No one believes me, but I clip the work of others and I research my humble columns). The question then remains, why do you think Ryan singled me out when all I did was repackage? I think I know. Ryan can’t credibly tilt at titans like Robinson and Parker. So he, still a beginner, finds a straw man from the Keystone State, puts him up to a circle jerk of self-congratulatory bloggers, makes an outrageous (and in the end, inaccurate) critique, and looks oh so smart to his dozens of readers for putting some hick in the sticks in his place.
Then the straw man gets pilloried for things he didn’t say about Spanish wines (poor, confused Joe M working out the vine thing in his head, still thinks I condemned, rather than praised, the Spanish wine industry). The straw guy gets blamed for every wrong in the world of wine, even Neo-Prohibitionist legislation and is told he can't write about wine unless he visits the countries they come from. And he gets slammed for not writing about some single vineyard, biodynamic, small lot, special cask, reserve wines no one outside of Manhattan can find. There’s outrage, give-and-take, lot of hits, and all is good in Opazland.
Friends, bloggers, countrymen. Why not call an end to your pajama revolution against some small time scribbler from Pennsylvania? Some of us have paying jobs we need to get back to.
1 year ago
My column was not in step with how people view Spanish wines? My column, in a nutshell, was Spanish wines are great , Spain is experiencing a revolution in quality, Spain will take over the wine world in the next decade, and I got five mediocre to crappy Spanish wines. So, what part of my column do you not agree with because I thought this was a blog for Spanish wine FANS. www.detestavino .net is a different site.
As for the five wines I didn’t like, no one, in all these verbose retorts, defended them. What of the specific charges of incompetence, poor research, sloth, and the other deadly sins levied against me in this pile on begun by Ryan? In one of his histrionics about my column he rails against me for calling Garnancha fruity. I wonder if he went into seizure when he read Jancis Robinson’s entry on the variety? Or the Wines from Spain literature? Both call Garnancha fruity.
Same with the comparisons of some Spanish wine to Bordeaux. From reading Ryan's shock-and-awe entry, one would think I compared Spanish wines to Arizona Green Tea. Guess what Catavino fans, Cab Sauv and Merlot are Bordeaux varieties. When you plant them, blend them, put them in oak, and bottle them in Bordeaux glass, it might look a bit like you picked some idea up from Bordeaux. Now, WE, WS, Decanter, everyone, has drawn the same comparison between some Spanish wines and Bordeaux. Where is Ryan’s outrage? Seems like he may have some uncompensated work to do. He faulted me for a word from a Spanish wine LABEL from chrissakes. I couldn’t even mention a wine without incurring his faux outrage.
Let’s get down to brass tacks, then. Other than my unchallenged opinion on those 5 wines that let me down nothing in that column was new or not said before by many, many others far greater than I. (No one believes me, but I clip the work of others and I research my humble columns). The question then remains, why do you think Ryan singled me out when all I did was repackage? I think I know. Ryan can’t credibly tilt at titans like Robinson and Parker. So he, still a beginner, finds a straw man from the Keystone State, puts him up to a circle jerk of self-congratulatory bloggers, makes an outrageous (and in the end, inaccurate) critique, and looks oh so smart to his dozens of readers for putting some hick in the sticks in his place.
Then the straw man gets pilloried for things he didn’t say about Spanish wines (poor, confused Joe M working out the vine thing in his head, still thinks I condemned, rather than praised, the Spanish wine industry). The straw guy gets blamed for every wrong in the world of wine, even Neo-Prohibitionist legislation and is told he can't write about wine unless he visits the countries they come from. And he gets slammed for not writing about some single vineyard, biodynamic, small lot, special cask, reserve wines no one outside of Manhattan can find. There’s outrage, give-and-take, lot of hits, and all is good in Opazland.
Friends, bloggers, countrymen. Why not call an end to your pajama revolution against some small time scribbler from Pennsylvania? Some of us have paying jobs we need to get back to.
1 year ago
David our "dozens of readers" equaled 10,000 last month! If working in the wine industry 10 yrs with 3 years of it specializing in Spanish wine is "still a beginner" as you say, so be it. Finally I have taken on the "titans" as you say many times in other articles, not only that but I have spoke with, met with and consider some friends such as important Spanish wine minds, like Gerry Dawes, John Radford, and Victor de la Serna...
So David there is still a glass to share if you do make it to BCN any time in the near future. I'm happy to talk, but don't take out your frustration here.
Cheers to both!
BTW I was wrong on the Crianca/Crianza sort of, yes it was on a bottle of Cava where it's meaning has nothing to do with wood aging and the spelling is in Catalan not Spanish. As to the wines you tasted, they need no comment.
1 year ago
David our "dozens of readers" equaled 10,000 last month! If working in the wine industry 10 yrs with 3 years of it specializing in Spanish wine is "still a beginner" as you say, so be it. Finally I have taken on the "titans" as you say many times in other articles, not only that but I have spoke with, met with and consider some friends such as important Spanish wine minds, like Gerry Dawes, John Radford, and Victor de la Serna...
So David there is still a glass to share if you do make it to BCN any time in the near future. I'm happy to talk, but don't take out your frustration here.
Cheers to both!
BTW I was wrong on the Crianca/Crianza sort of, yes it was on a bottle of Cava where it's meaning has nothing to do with wood aging and the spelling is in Catalan not Spanish. As to the wines you tasted, they need no comment.
1 year ago
You're ever the generous and patient host to still share a glass with this 'strawman' who writes such poorly written, and misunderstood articles for his poor 'small town' readers, and then gets all bent out of shape when he is taken to task for writing a poor, misleading article. Geez, this guy is more sensitive to criticism than the Man of Monkton.
David, I'm new to wine blogging and relatively new to this site, but I am pretty confident that most folks outside of the self congratulatory crowd you speak of would read your article and be confused as to what Spanish wines are about. Maybe your talents would best be served writing for the trade pubs you previously mentioned and not for newspapers or consumer publications.
And that's it from me on this thread.
Feliz y prospero ano nuevo, Ryan. Looking forward to what you've got in store for '08 on catavino.
-Joe
1 year ago
You're ever the generous and patient host to still share a glass with this 'strawman' who writes such poorly written, and misunderstood articles for his poor 'small town' readers, and then gets all bent out of shape when he is taken to task for writing a poor, misleading article. Geez, this guy is more sensitive to criticism than the Man of Monkton.
David, I'm new to wine blogging and relatively new to this site, but I am pretty confident that most folks outside of the self congratulatory crowd you speak of would read your article and be confused as to what Spanish wines are about. Maybe your talents would best be served writing for the trade pubs you previously mentioned and not for newspapers or consumer publications.
And that's it from me on this thread.
Feliz y prospero ano nuevo, Ryan. Looking forward to what you've got in store for '08 on catavino.
-Joe